47 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1998, Canada

Journals of the Senate

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Issue 80

Tuesday, September 29, 1998
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker

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The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Balfour, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Lucier, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson

The Members in attendance to business were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Balfour, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, *Forrestall, Fraser, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Lucier, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Rivest, Roberge, Robertson, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Roche, Rompkey, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson

PRAYERS

INTRODUCTION OF SENATORS

The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the Clerk of the Senate had received a Certificate from the Registrar General of Canada showing that Vivienne Poy had been summoned to the Senate.

The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that there was a Senator without waiting to be introduced. The Honourable Senator Poy was introduced between the Honourable Senator Graham, P.C., and the Honourable Senator Pépin, and having presented Her Majesty's Writ of Summons it was read by one of the Clerks at the Table as follows:-

CANADA

Michel Bastarache
(G.S.)

Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories QUEEN, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.

TO

Our Trusty and Well-beloved,

VIVIENNE POY

of Toronto, in the Province of Ontario,

GREETING:

KNOW YOU, that as well for the especial trust and confidence We have manifested in you, as for the purpose of obtaining your advice and assistance in all weighty and arduous affairs which may the State and Defence of Canada concern, We have thought fit to summon you to the Senate of Canada.

AND WE do command you that all difficulties and excuses whatsoever laying aside, you be and appear, for the purposes aforesaid, in the Senate of Canada at all times whensoever and wheresoever Our Parliament may be in Canada convoked and holden, and this you are in no wise to omit.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Canada to be Hereunto affixed.

WITNESS:

The Honourable J.E. Michel Bastarache, a Puisne Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada and Deputy of Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Roméo A. LeBlanc, a Member of Our Privy Council for Canada, Chancellor and Principal Companion of Our Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of Our Order of Military Merit, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.

At Ottawa, this seventeenth day of September in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight and in the forty-seventh year of Our Reign.

BY COMMAND,

JOHN MANLEY

Registrar General of Canada The Honourable Senator Poy came to the Table and took and subscribed the Oath prescribed by law, which was administered by the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed for that purpose, and took her seat as a Member of the Senate.

The Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the Honourable Senator Poy had made and subscribed the Declaration of Property Qualification required of her by the Constitution Act 1867, in the presence of the Clerk of the Senate, the Commissioner appointed to receive and witness same.

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Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Florence Bird, former Senator, whose death occurred July 18, 1998.

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS

Tabling of Documents

The Honourable the Speaker tabled the following:

Report of the Privacy Commissioner for the period ending March 31, 1998, pursuant to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985,c. P-21, s. 40(1).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-786.

Government Notices of Motions

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Corbin:

That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, September 30, 1998 , at 1:30 p.m.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Notices of Motions

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Kelly moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carney, P.C.:

That notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on March 26, 1998, the Special Committee of the Senate on Security and Intelligence which was authorised to hear evidence on and consider matters relating to the threat posed to Canada by terrorism and the counter-terrorism activities of the Government of Canada; examine and report on the current international threat environment with particular reference to terrorism as it relates to Canada; examine and report on the extent to which the recommendations of the Report of the Special Committee on terrorism and Public Safety (June 1987) and the Report of the Special Committee on terrorism and the Public Safety(June 1989) have been addressed by the Government of Canada; examine and make recommendations with respect to the threat assessment capacity of the Government of Canada relative to the threats of terrorism; and examine and make recommendations with respect to the leadership role, preparedness and review of those departments and agencies of the Government of Canada with counter-terrorism responsibilities; be empowered to present its final report no later than November 30, 1998; and

That the Committee be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit its report with the Clerk of the Senate, if the Senate is not then sitting; and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Chamber.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS

Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:

Reply to Question No 121, dated May 28, 1998, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Phillips, respecting Employment Insurance.-Sessional PaperNo. 1/36-787S.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Government BUSINESS

Bills

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Private Bills

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until thenext sitting.

Reports of Committees

Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until thenext sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Milne, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bryden, for the adoption of the Twelfth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs (Bill S-15, An Act respecting the declaration of royal assent by the Governor General in the Queen's name to bills passed by the Houses of Parliament, with amendments) presented in the Senate on June 18, 1998,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Grafstein, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin, that the Report be not now adopted, but that it be referred back to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for further consideration.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Order No. 4 was called and postponed until the next sitting.

Other

Orders No. 39, 35, 15 and 27 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Meighen, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kirby:

That the Senate urges the Government, in the February 1998 Budget, to propose an amendment to the Income Tax Act that would increase to 30%, by increments of 2% per year over a five-year period, the foreign property component of deferred income plans (pension plans, registered retirement savings plans and registered pension plans), as was done in the period between 1990 to 1995 when the foreign property limit of deferred income plans was increased from 10% to 20%, because:

(a) Canadians should be permitted to take advantage of potentially better investment returns in other markets, thereby increasing the value of their financial assets held for retirement, reducing the amount of income supplement that Canadians may need from government sources, and increasing government tax revenues from retirement income;

(b) Canadians should have more flexibility when investing their retirement savings, while reducing the risk of those investments through diversification;

(c) greater access to the world equity market would allow Canadians to participate in both higher growth economies and industry sectors;

(d) the current 20% limit has become artificial since both individuals with significant resources and pension plans with significant resources can by-pass the current limit through the use of, for example, strategic investment decisions and derivative products; and

(e) problems of liquidity for pension fund managers, who now find they must take substantial positions in a single company to meet the 80% Canadian holdings requirement, would be reduced.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (L'Acadie-Acadia), that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 23 and 32 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, seconded by the Honourable Senator Berntson:

That a Special Committee of the Senate be appointed to examine and report on the manner in which the chain of command of the Canadian Forces both in-theatre and atNational Defence Headquarters, responded to the operational, disciplinary, decision-making and administrative problems encountered during the Somalia deployment to the extent that these matters have not been examined by the Commission of Inquiry into the Deployment of Canadian Forces to Somalia;

That the Committee in examining these issues may call witnesses from whom it believes it may obtain evidence relevant to these matters including but not limited to:

1. former Ministers of National Defence;

2. the then Deputy Minister of National Defence;

3. the then Acting Chief of Staff of the Minister ofNational Defence;

4. the then special advisor to the Minister of National Defence (M. Campbell);

5. the then special advisor to the Minister of National Defence (J. Dixon);

6. the persons occupying the position of Judge Advocate General during the relevant period;

7. the then Deputy Judge Advocate General (litigation); and

8. the then Chief of Defence Staff and Deputy Chief of Defence Staff.

That seven Senators, nominated by the Committee of Selection act as members of the Special Committee, and that three members constitute a quorum;

That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records, to examine witnesses under oath, to report from time to time and to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the Committee;

That the Committee have power to authorize television and radio broadcasting, as it deems appropriate, of any or all of its proceedings;

That the Committee have the power to engage the services of such counsel and other professional, technical, clerical and other personnel as may be necessary for the purposes of its examination;

That the political parties represented on the Special Committee be granted allocations for expert assistance with the work of the Committee;

That it be empowered to adjourn from place to place within and outside Canada;

That the Committee have the power to sit during sittings and adjournments of the Senate;

That the Committee submit its report not later than one year from the date of it being constituted, provided that if the Senate is not sitting, the report will be deemed submitted on the day such report is deposited with the Clerk of the Senate; and

That the Special Committee include in its report, its findings and recommendations regarding the structure, functioning and operational effectiveness of National Defence Headquarters, the relationship between the military and civilian components of NDHQ, and the relationship among the Deputy Minister of Defence, the Chief of Defence Staff and the Minister ofNational Defence,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Forrestall, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that the motion be amended by adding in paragraph 2 the following:

"9. the present Minister of National Defence.".

After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Orders No. 34 and 37 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.

INQUIRIES

The Honourable Senator Beaudoin called the attention of the Senate to his participation at the XVth International Congress of Comparative Law, held during the last week of July 1998, in Bristol, England, a participation related to the subject of constitutionalism in Canada.

Debate concluded.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C.:

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders

The name of the Honourable Senator DeWare substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Grimard (September 28).

Committee of Selection

The name of the Honourable Senator Pépin substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Corbin (September 28).

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